Pro and Con 1254

Posted 11-9-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: Interesting Article

HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY IN ISRAEL
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3164437,00.html

My reply

> > Ruins of ‘oldest church’ uncovered

> > Archeological dig in Megiddo uncovers what appears to be a church dating back to 3rd, 4th century CE
Sharon Rofeh-Ophir

> > The ruins of the oldest Christian church in the Middle East, and probably the whole world, were discovered few days ago in the Megiddo prison area, a Channel 2 report revealed Saturday....
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Thanks. I saw 2 pictures of the floor on the National Geographic site. Look at the first one closely. Why would anyone put a design on a floor that doesn't appear to be flat? Where the smudge is on the left, it looks as if you could fall in a hole. One shouldn't walk on it if they were the least bit dizzy. I think I'd want to walk slowly and carefully.

Photo Gallery: Ancient Church Found at Israeli Prison
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1107_051107_oldest_church.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/photogalleries/oldest_church/photo2.html
...Israeli prisoner Ramil Razilo first found the edge of the mosaic while removing debris from the site of a planned prison-ward expansion. According to the Associated Press, two of the mosaics tell the story of a Roman officer and a woman named Aketous who donated money to build the structure in the memory "of the god, Jesus Christ."... Agape

My reply to CAPS on Five Doves site

"Days of Noah and Lot", 8 Nov 2005
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/caps118.htm

> > I respectfully disagree with Marilyn Agee on Noah and Lot representing 2 different raptures.

I believe that there are two Days of the Son of Man, the Pre-Trib Rapture, as the days of Noah, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture, as the days of Lot. They did not take place simultaneously. One happened some time before the other. If I remember right, Abraham was born two years before Noah died. At that time, Lot had not yet been born.

Enoch represents the first Rapture. Elijah represents the second. Events in the life of Enoch and Elijah were different, as were the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Enoch was taken up when things were peaceful. Elijah had Jezebel trying to have him killed. He had tribulation. He had to flee for 40 days and hide in a cave. He was fed by angels and ravens. This suggests the flight of the Messianic Jews to Petra, where they will be fed for 1260 days, the Great Tribulation.

(1) Type of the Pre-Trib Rapture: Gen. 5:24 says, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for GOD TOOK HIM."
(2) Type of the Pre-Wrath Rapture: 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of FIRE, and horses of FIRE, and parted them both asunder; and ELIJAH WENT UP BY A WHIRLWIND into heaven."

(1) The day that the Lord shut Noah into the Ark ended with a torrential rain of water. The coming down of water is similar to the coming down of the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9). Like Enoch, God will take up the Bride saints.
(2) The day that the angels brought Lot out of Sodom ended with a torrential rain of fire and brimstone. Like Elijah, the Tribulation saints will be caught up - saved so as by fire.

In Luke 17:22-24. Jesus said, "The DAYS (plural, [1] Pre-Trib Rapture, as the days of Noah, [2] Pre-Wrath Rapture, as the days of Lot) will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN (i.e., the 1st Rapture), and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them (i.e., during the Tribulation, Mt 24:26). For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in HIS DAY" (the Day of the Lord, first day of the Millennium, time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture).

In Mt 24:30,31, Jesus said of the Day of the Lord, "then (tote, at the same time) shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then (tote, at the same time) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." These gathered from one end of Heaven to the other are those that were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Mark 13:24-27 says, "But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (i.e., 6th seal, Rev. 6:12), And the stars of heaven shall fall (Rev. 6:13), and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then (tote, at the same time, i.e., on the Day of the Lord) shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds (i.e., it's the Sign of the Son of Man) with great power and glory. And then (tote, at the same time) shall he send his angels, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN (i.e., those caught up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture). The Tribulation saints will be caught up when "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17).

Before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5) on the Day of the Lord, all saints are gathered to the General Assembly in Heaven. Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written IN HEAVEN, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (i.e., made immortal), And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant."

> > Marilyn made the point that there was 'iniquity' in the days of Lot. But it was the same in the days of Noah...iniquity abounded.

You're right. Sins between mankind and angels are mentioned both times, in the days of Noah and in the days of Lot.

Gen 6:4,5 says of the days of Noah, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (i.e., fallen angels - each angel individually created by God) came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen 19:1,4,5 says of the days of Lot, "there came two angels to Sodom at even...But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men (i.e., the two male angels) which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

Job 1:6 calls angels "the sons of God, because they were individually created by God. It says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

> > And notice the word in verse 30 about "the day" singular that the Son of man is revealed.

The Sign of the Son of Man is only seen at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That is why it is singular. Verse 32 says, "Remember Lot's wife." Noah's wife made it. Lot's wife did not. They typify two different Days of the Son of Man.

Noah is not present during the Tribulation. Elijah is present during the Tribulation.

Rev 11:1-12 says, "there was given me (John) a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein (the Bride saints are the temple of the Holy Spirit and can be numbered). But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (the first half of the Tribulation). And I will give power unto my two witnesses (Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (the first half of the Tribulation), clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth (Zech. 4:14, Mt. 17:2,3). And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called SODOM (i.e., as in the days of Lot) and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER (as in the Pre-Wrath Rapture). And THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: The Untold Story Behind ..Creation Week

Thought you'd be interested in this. Supporting evidence for a closer proximity can be found in Velikovsky's writings. Agape
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http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=162

As I considered Saturn’s conjunction, I wondered why Jacob had said, "The scepter shall not depart ... until Shiloh come." This conjunction, then, must be the initial event that placed the kingship on Saturn. According to the cosmologies of ancient civilizations, Saturn was regarded as the king of earth "... during its Golden Age" (World Book Encyclopedia). Even though the tale of Saturn’s kingship is found in corrupt mythologies, the fact that it had a conjunction with the "royal" star in the "king of the jungle’s" constellation, on the first day of Creation, lends credibility to the concept that its conjunctions were there to celebrate the creation of Adam, the first king of this world.

Is it possible that the universe was much closer to earth shortly after Creation, then expanded at an incredible speed, moving the galaxies and the planets in our solar system farther and farther away from Earth until the outer planets could no longer be seen?
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More from: The Untold Story Behind ..Creation Week, by J. R. Church

...Most conservative Christian theologians believe that Adam was created in 4004 B.C. Furthermore, Jewish scholars observe the new moon of September or early October as the birthday of the world. They claim that the first day of Creation happened on Rosh Hashanah, the new moon of late September.

Also, I wondered if the first day of Creation might be on a Sunday. If so, then Adam would have been created on Friday, and God would have rested on Saturday.

There was one sure way to find out. I used a MacIntosh version of Starry Night Pro astronomy program and changed the date to September 4004 B.C. Next, I began to look for the new moon. On the computer screen, the evening sky appeared and I moved the scene around to the west. Then I began to click through each day until I came to the new moon. It appeared as a crescent just above the western horizon shortly after sunset ... and the date was September 25, 4004 B.C....

I was still looking at Sunday, September 25, 4004 B.C. As I gazed upon Leo, in what I considered to be the first day of Creation, I saw the four outer planets grouped together in the constellation, as if God had laid them out in a straight line before kick-starting their orbits! There was Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. The chances that all four outer planets could be that close together on that date was nigh unto impossible ... unless, of course, they were placed there as a sign that this universe was created by intelligent design. ...

Furthermore, what is even more remarkable is that Saturn was in conjunction with Leo’s chief star, Regulus! The thought struck me that I should see whether this was a normal conjunction or a rare triple conjunction. Setting the planets in motion, I discovered that this was the first of a triple conjunction between Saturn and the royal star Regulus, the "sceptre" of Leo. I watched as Saturn moved on past Regulus for a few weeks, then turned around in retrograde motion and returned for a second conjunction on November 12. Saturn continued to back up for a few months, then started forward again and encountered a third conjunction with Regulus on June 5, 4003 B.C....

According to the astronomical events on September 25, 4004 B.C., it seems evident that God created the universe in six days, beginning on Sunday. He created Adam on Friday and rested on Saturday. The seventh day was named after Saturn, the king planet during earth’s "Golden Age." It seems apparent that Saturn represented Adam’s reign over the earth...

My reply

Thanks. I enjoyed reading the article. I don't think Sunday, September 25, 4004 BC, was the "first day of Creation", but it probably was the day Adam was judged and cast out of the Garden of Eden.

I think Adam was created 40 years before that, on Friday, Elul 29, 283 BJE (before the Jewish Era) on the Hebrew Calendar, BC 4044/4043 on ours. The number 40 means testing and probation. Jesus was tested 40 days, and I think Adam was tested 40 years. See my Bible Chronology and Martin Anstey's. It fits perfectly.

I think the day that God rested was Saturday, Tishri 1, 283 BJE. On that September 18, BC 4044, the Crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet. The setting Sun clothed Virgo with sunlight, as it did when Jesus, the "last Adam" (I Cor. 15:45), was born on Tishri 1, 37.

Of that day, Rev. 12:1,2,5 says, "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Virgo) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.... And she brought forth a man child (Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Since only the area of the feet of Virgo appears on this sky chart from YourSky, it isn't labeled. The outer boundary of Virgo is above the "t" in Caput. It intersects one corner of Virgo near her feet. The Crescent Moon is straight down from Virgo's feet. Jupiter and Venus are near the Moon. Mercury has just set ahead of the Sun. Saturn is entering Pisces. It is Tishri 1.

The date, Kislev 24, in Haggai 2:18,19 applies to Jesus' conception. He is the only foundation.

Kislev 24 can't apply to the first temple (it was begun Iyar 2 (I Kings 6:1, II Chron 3:2). Kislev 24 can't apply to the second temple, either. The foundation of it was laid in Iyar (Ezra 3:8,11). Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: "As in the days of Noah"

From: Jim Bramlett:

On July 11, 2005, I passed on news reports from FOX News and WorldNetDaily concerning a possible nuclear terrorist attack against U.S. cities. FOX News quoted counterterrorism expert Juval Aviv, who said, "I predict, based primarily on information that is floating in Europe and the Middle East, that an event is imminent and around the corner here in the United States. It could happen as soon as tomorrow, or it could happen in the next few months. Ninety days at the most."

I added, "The 90-day window described below may not be exact, but on the other hand it may be, or close. And remember, he said, 90 days "at the most." So, what if he is off a few days, and it is 120 days, or even six months?"

Mr. Aviv was not prophesying but only related what his intelligence information was saying. Thank God nothing has happened. He could have been wrong -- or prayer may have diverted it, or delayed it. Often the intention of the devil is revealed and the saints go to war against it, and nullify it.

The times and the future are no less dangerous, so let us stay in prayer. Of course, certain prophetic events must take place. But Jesus' instructions concerning this are always in order: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21:36, NIV).

Some are saying they believe the tribulation will begin this fall, which has a lot of implications. I was thinking about this last night and was reminded of Noah and the importance of Jesus' words that His return will be "as in the days of Noah." The date Noah entered the ark and the flood began has always seemed highly significant to me as a clue of end-time timing. Makes sense, right? Jesus said it. I decided to check it out.

Genesis 7 says that Noah entered the ark and the flood began on the 17 day of the second month. But then I wondered if that second month was on the sacred or civil calendar. If the former, it would have been in the spring; if the latter in the fall.

I did an Internet search and found a post by Marilyn Agee written in 1998, and she answers it. She says, "Noah came before Moses. The Sacred calendar was not in existence until the Israelites came out of Egypt. The second month was therefore Cheshvan on the Civil calendar.... Going by the Civil Talmudic Calendar, the 'second month, the seventeenth day,' the Flood began. That would have been Cheshvan 17."

I checked a Jewish calendar and found that Cheshvan 17 in the year 2005 falls on November 19.

Reminder: The letter equivalents of Jewish year 5758, which overlaps modern year 1998, mean "season of Noah." That may have meant that we are in the prophesied "days of Noah," and 1998 could have begun a seven-year countdown to the day the door of the ark is closed and the judgment begins.

Keep watching and praying, and be ready. Jim

My reply

In Noah's day, it started to rain on Cheshvan 17 and rained 40 days and 40 nights. Adding 40 days to November 19, 2005 brings us to Kislev 27 (Dec. 28). That's the third day of Hanukkah. By that time the Ark had floated free of the Earth. Gen. 7:17 says, "the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was LIFT UP ABOVE THE EARTH." There is a possibility that we will be lifted up above the Earth at the same time that the Ark was lifted up.

Concerning the Eve of Hanukkah, Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider (lit., take it to heart) now FROM THIS DAY AND UPWARD, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple (there is no other foundation but Jesus) was laid, consider it. Is the seed (seed of the woman, Jesus) yet in the barn (the word is feminine, sounds like Jesus' conception)? yea, as yet the vine (Jesus), and the fig tree (Israel), and the pomegranate, and the olive tree (Israel, but the Gentiles can be grafted in), hath not brought forth: FROM THIS DAY (Kislev 24) WILL I BLESS YOU."

Sunday, Kislev 24 this year is Christmas Day. From 6 PM to midnight Christmas Day and Hanukkah overlap. That might be a good time for the Rapture. From 24 to 27 Kislev could be our Rapture Window. We will know soon.

Kislev 24, 3756 (Dec. 5, BC 6, Julian) was probably the day Jesus was conceived. Tishri 1, 3757 (Sept. 4, BC 5, Julian) was probably the Day Jesus was born.

Rev. 12: 1,5 says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Look at the sky chart of September 4, BC 5.

The Sun is setting, clothing VIRGO with sunshine. The new Crescent Moon is under her feet. It ties in with Jesus' birth on Sept. 4, BC 5, and is pretty good proof that the date is correct. Tishri 1 would have been set when the new Crescent Moon was sighted.

I went to Fred Espenak's Phases of the Moon chart at:
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/phase/phases-0099.html

On BC 5 (which is listed as BC 4, because astronomers put in the non-existant zero year), the date given for the New Moon is Sep 1 18:09 P. There was a partial eclipse, Umbrial, at that time. It was the dark of the Moon, the conjuction. The Universal Time is 18:09 hours. Since 18:00 is 6 PM for the Jews, the next day would have started. Allowing the usual 2 days for the crescent Moon to be sighted brings us to Sept. 4. That matches the YourSky chart for that day. There too, BC 4 is really BC 5.

There were 274 days between the Conception on Kislev 24 and the following Tishri 1. Gestation can be between 266 and 280 days. Everything fits.

Note: Gestation for a female child is 266-267 days. For a male child, it is 270-271 days (Encyclopedia Brittanica).

The Conception (Kislev 24) was when the Body of Christ first came to this Earth. Will he come to get the Bride of Christ, which is part of the spiritual Body of Christ, at that time, or shortly thereafter at the Feast of the Dedication? Jesus went to the temple and walked in Solomon's porch on the Feast of Dedication, Kislev 25 (John 10:22). That may be a clue to his coming to the temple of the Holy Spirit, the Church. Agape

My outgoing email (incoming omitted), Re: Saturn's 7 rings

> > Zechariah - Chapter 3
8: Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9: For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
> > * "Stone" with "seven eyes" = "lamb" with "seven eyes and horns"
> > * "remove the iniquity of that land in one day"
This passage is interesting in the LXX, and this is what was available to the people in 30 AD. Zech. 3:1-10 says, "the Lord shewed me JESUS the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and the Devil stood on his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said to the Devil, The Lord rebuke thee, O Devil, even the Lord that has chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: behold! is not this as a brand plucked from the fire? Now JESUS was clothed in filthy raiment, and stood before the angel. And the Lord answered and spoke to those who stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy raiment from him: and he said to him, Behold, I have taken away thine iniquities: and clothe ye him with a long robe, and place a pure mitre upon his head. So they placed a pure mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments: and the angel of the Lord stood by. And the angel of the Lord testified to JESUS, saying, Thus saith the Lord Almighty; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and take heed to my charges, then shalt thou judge my house: and if thou wilt diligently keep my court, then will I give thee men to walk in the midst of these that stand here. Hear now, JESUS the high priest, thou, and thy neighbours that are sitting before thee: for they are diviners, for, behold, I bring forth my servant THE BRANCH (i.e., Jesus Christ). For AS FOR THE STONE (planet) WHICH I HAVE SET BEFORE THE FACE OF JESUS, ON THE ONE STONE ARE SEVEN EYES" (orbs, i.e., Saturn's 7 rings).

Does it reach beyond Joshua to also apply to Jesus? Yes. Jesus is The Branch. Isa 4:2 says, "In that day shall THE BRANCH OF THE LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel."

Jer 33:15 says, "In those days, and at that time, will I causeTHE BRANCH OF RIGHTEOUSNESS to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land."

Zec 6:12 says, "speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is THE BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD".

Eze 1:26-28 also tells us about Saturn's rings. It says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the 4 terrestrial planets called cherubim) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber Saturn has amber on it), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward (i.e.,from the equator upward), and from the appearance of his loins even downward (i.e., from the equator downward), I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and IT HAD BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT. The brightness around Saturn is its 7 rings. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

This planet with brightness around it is the "THIRD HEAVEN" Paul was caught up to in II Cor. 12:2--(1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, and (3) Saturn. Agape

Pro and Con 1255 Or Return

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