Pro and Con 263

Uploaded 2-6-99

Incoming Email

Re: the 400s, From: Jean Kincaid, To: Julienne Chambers, who posted on the 5 Doves site, CC to Marilyn:
Dear Julienne, In reference to your calculations from 1517 when Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses on the Wittenberg church door, my daughter and I have had Marilyn Agee's considerations of the 400s posted on our website www.virtualchurch.org since about 1995 (1996), under the link from the homepage at The Exit, Rapture and End Times, Where do We Go From Here? Marilyn also has a link to a more comprehensive discussion about the 400s from her homepage http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/

She first published in 1987 her thoughts on the relationships of Israel's 400s with Luther's theses as baseline for the last days. Her book first was published by Archer press as "Exit 2007", and again by Avon Press under a new title. She has also published two other books, one titled "Heaven Found" and "Revelations 2000" through Avon Press. Her research on the Bible has been extensive over more than 30 years, and she has studied through and through more than 15 different versions of the Holy Bible. While her conclusions do not agree with yours in terms of the final 7 years you will find her viewpoints interesting in any case.

There is a lot of info at her site, including extensive listings of her answers to letters she has received in her "Pros and Cons" section which contains more than 260 entries, each with multiple letters, with her answers.

If you have not seen Marilyn's site, you certainly should review it. God bless you greatly, Jean of www.virtualchurch.org

My reply

Thanks Jean. The Lord must be dovetailing things. Just before I got this, another friend sent me "Daniel 9 and the Year 2000," by Julienne Chambers.

Since a lot of people read both sites, I will point out some of the places that we differ.

> the 70 Week Prophecy. I believe the prophecy was wondrously realized nearly 2000 years ago
> in the 70 'Weeks of Years' from the decree to restore Jerusalem issued in 457 BC to the
> proclamation of the gospel to the Gentiles 3.5 years after Jesus' death on the Cross.

I think the correct start date is the decree of Cyrus (Isa. 44:28) in BC 454 (as per Martin Anstey's "Romance of Bible Chronology"). The correct ending date of the 483 years is BC 30 (483 - 454 +1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD). I don't think those 483 years can go beyond the Crucifixion. Dan. 9:25,26 says, "seven weeks (of years), and threescore and two weeks (62 + 7 x 7 = 483 years)...after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (karath, killed)."

> I believe the 70 Week prophecy is applicable to four decrees .. the two decrees issued by
> King Artaxerxes in 457 and 445 BC ..the decree issued to the Roman Church by Martin Luther
> in 1517 .. and the decree issued by the League of Nations in 1947 which resulted in the
> restoration of Israel. I believe these decrees are linked through the 70 Week prophey to
> the first and the second coming of the Lord....the Lord Jesus was anointed by the Holy
> Spirit at His baptism 483 years...from the year King Artaxerxes issues his decree. When
> 483 years are added to the Jewish Year in which the decree was issued, the year which
> began in Tishri 458 BC, 26 AD comes to light. If Jesus began His ministry in 26 AD He
> died on the Cross in 30 AD, 3.5 years later. The Messiah was crucified 'in the middle of
> a seven' in precise fulfillment of thee Angel Gabriel's prophecy.

The only decree that is valid is that of Cyrus. In Isa. 44:28, the LORD is the one "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT; and to the TEMPLE, THY FOUNDATION SHALL BE LAID." There is not a shred of evidence in Gabriel's prophecy that "Messiah was crucified 'in the middle of a seven." It plainly says, "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off." The "midst of the week" of Dan. 9:27 is the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation, when the False Prophet sits in the temple shewing himself that he is God.

However, all the Bible's blocks of years in the 400's, except the 434 that is added to 49 to make 483, do seem to point to important end time events dating from the Jewish 5278 (1517), when Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses to the church DOOR in Wittenberg, Germany. Here is the list:

(1) 5278 + 400 = 5678 (1917/1918) - Jerusalem freed in 1917
(2) 5278 + 430 = 5708 (1947/1948) - Israel declared her Independence in 1948
(3) 5278 + 450 = 5728 (1967/1968) - Six-Day War = Sign of the End of the Age
(4) 5278 + 480 = 5758 (1997/1998) - Door opens before virgins, half of whom will be the Bride
(5) 5278 + 483 = 5761 (2000/2001) - Beginning of the Tribulation
(6) 5278 + 490 = 5768 (2007/2008) - Second Advent

Since the Rapture did not take place in 5758, and Queen Esther was purified 12 months before she was taken to the king, I am hoping for the Rapture of the Bride of Christ on Pentecost, 1999. It was customary for an engagement to be one year to prove that the bride was a virgin.

That fits the parable of the ten virgins too. In Mt. 25:1, the virgins "took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom," but five were foolish and did not have enough oil. It seems that the Bridegroom is tarrying to give them a chance to repent. Rev. 2:21 says, "I gave her space to repent." This space may only be 12 months long. Mt. 25:5-10 says, "While the bridegroom TARRIED, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him....they that were READY went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut" (as the Ark door was shut). Be ready in case this is our last chance to repent.

When the Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 1:3;22:10), the Lord says, "behold, I have set before thee an OPEN DOOR" (Rev. 3:8). It looks likely that we will go through that open door within a 12-month period, i.e., in 5759 (1999).

The clue we need to figure it out is in the Bible somewhere. In Mark 4:22,23, Jesus said, "For there is NOTHING hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad (that includes the date of the Rapture). If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Five verses later, he said, "For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn (siton, grain, especially wheat) in the ear. But WHEN THE FRUIT IS BROUGHT FORTH, IMMEDIATELY he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come."

When is wheat planted in Israel? in the fall. When is it harvested? the following spring--starting at Pentecost. "WHEN THE FRUIT IS BROUGHT FORTH, IMMEDIATELY he putteth in the sickle, because THE HARVEST IS COME."

We are "a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18). THE TWO LOAVES ON PENTECOST, "they are the FIRSTFRUITS unto the LORD" (Lev. 23:17).

> Following the Exodus the Hebrews were told to count '7 sevens' and then to celebrate a
> jubilee year. So after '7 sevens', and extra year was added to the cycle of 'seven', the
> jubilee year. So in biblical terms '62 sevens' is 442 years ..434 plus 8 years!

I don't think so. The Jubilee cycle is 49 years. The Jubilee, 50th year, is also the first year of the next cycle.

> If Jesus began His ministry in 26 AD at the age of 30 then He was probably born in 4 BC!

I think Jesus was born on Tishri 1 in BC 5 (30 - 26 + 1 because there is no zero year = BC 5).

> I believe the Exodus took place in the Jewish Year that began in 1451 BC

I think the Exodus was in 1530 BC.

> If the Exodus was reckoned Israel's first jubilee year then the 70th Jubilee Year will
> fall in the Year 2000

The Jubilee year was not kept until 50 years AFTER the Exodus, after they were in the land. I figure the Biblical Jubilee year, cycles counted from the year of the Exodus, will start Nisan 1, 5759 (March 18, 1999).

> If the 70th Jubilee falls in the Year 2000 then it is indeed possible that the second
> coming of Jesus will take place about then. If so then the timeframe of 3.5 years in
> Revelation is not literal!"

It is literal. And I think the Second Advent will be Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008).

Incoming Email

...My question centers around a problem I've been having in my life for quite a while. I have this deep feeling in the Spirit that the Lord has placed me here for a specific reason, and at this specific time. I'm only 24 years old, and I really haven't done a whole lot yet, and so I'm wondering that if the rapture does in fact take place this year sometime, that only gives me a couple of months to do something... or maybe I've already done something and just didn't know it.

As for the future, I have great plans for the future, but if the Lord chooses in His divine wisdom to come, you won't hear any argument from me. In any case, I guess my question really is for all of us young folks out here in cyberspace... what can we do? what are we supposed to be doing? These questions actually plague my generation, both Christian and non-Christian, so I don't really expect much of an answer... just some encouragement that the Lord's wishes will be done.

My reply

There is something we can all do, try to bring others into the fold while there is yet time. Ask others if they have a relationship with Christ. If they seem willing to discuss it, tell them the reason for the hope that is in you.

Right now, it is as if we are in a small boat and the waters are running relatively smooth and fast. What so many don't realize, is that there is a waterfall ahead. We have been given a way to get out of the boat in time, but if we don't take it, woe lies ahead.

This life is a test. God has given us a manual to go by, but if we don't study His Word, how will we know how to pass our test? We can read it ourselves and encourage others to read the manual, starting with the New Testament, then Isaiah to Malachi. After reading the prophecies, it will be easier to read the Bible from the beginning. We find that Israel played out little dramatic skits to help us understand prophecy. The search gets exciting.

May God show you what he wants you to do as you walk, one step at a time. When he opens doors, go through them. When he closes doors, don't try to go through them. He will guide you. Agape

Incoming Email

DEAN: "US" (1 Jn.4:6) wrote:
> >> Dear Burt (Bellows ), the below is just a "stage" from which I
> >> would make my case for pre-trib rapture.
...
BURT:
>The pre-trib rapture doctrine was not made popular until a woman had a rather bad
>vision that was likely either false or misinterpreted. The fellow who took up the
>doctrine was kicked out of his denomination for being contentious rather than loving.

>When Darby came along, followed by Schofield, the doctrine became known and accepted.
>Until that time, there was no pre-trib doctrine....

BURT:...
>Naturally I believe I see things very clearly and can
>explain that the pre-trib stand is incorrect.
...
DEAN:
>...I will first present my one-verse PROOF of a pre-trib Rapture, and ask you to
>explain why it doesn't prove a pre-trib Rapture.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man....

> 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
> shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
>
> 1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
> of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
> 1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
> in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
>
> In both descriptions above, the rapture happens AFTER the trumpet sounds. Rev.11:15
> has no reference to any Raptures of any kind. The 7th trumpet of Revelations does
> NOT announce any Raptures. Burt, please explain.

> Witnesses: please feel free to chime in...Come NOW Lord Jesus! Dean, and, "US" 1 John 4:6

My reply

From Marilyn:
I am a Pre-Tribber. I also am a Pre-Wrather. I think there are two Raptures, one for the Bride of Christ, the other for the rest of the Body of Christ. I will chime in and tell you how I believe.

We see the first group in Heaven in Rev. 5:9: "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are the Church saints, called up by the first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). They are the wise virgins, the loving Philadelphians that have no condemnation mentioned against them.

We see the second group in Heaven in Rev. 7:9: "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." Verse 14 tell us that they "came out of great tribulation." They are the Tribulation saints, called up by the "last trump" of God (I Cor. 15:52). They are the foolish virgins, the lukewarm Laodiceans that do have condemnation mentioned against them, the ones who are to be chastised (Rev. 3:19).

Both groups are in Heaven before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth in Rev. 8. Therefore, the trumps of God are not the same as the seven trumpets sounded by angels.

The prefigure of the two trumps of God is found in Nu. 10: "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver...And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., the last trump), ALL the assembly (i.e., Body of Christ) shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (i.e., Heaven). And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes (i.e., elders, Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The first trump sounds in I Thess. 4:16 ("the trump of God") and Rev. 4:1 ("voice...as it were of a trumpet"). This is the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The last trump sounds in I Cor. 15:52 ("at the last trump"). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. By that time, "ALL" are assembled.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (where those taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture are) (Mark 13:27).

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37-42). Marriage is mentioned, and Noah's wife was taken up. No fire falls that day.

The second Rapture is as the day of Lot (Lu. 17:28-37). No marriage is mentioned, and Lot's wife did not make it. Fire falls that same day.

Just as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam, I think the Bride of Christ will be taken out of the Body of Christ. And just as Eve was taken out just before the Sabbath began, there is a chance that it will be the same for us. This year, l999, Sivan 6 is on Friday. Sivan 7 is on Saturnday. Both are listed as Shavuoth (Pentecost) on the Talmudic Jewish calendar.

At the first Rapture, the Lord is not seen by those on Earth. He is in the clouds. This is like the apostles who were with Jesus right away after the resurrection, "the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, and upon whom he "breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:19-22).

At the second Rapture, the Lord is seen. It is the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30). This is like doubting Thomas, who had to see Jesus to believe. Just as it was "after eight days" (Jn. 20:26) when Thomas finally saw Jesus, I believe the second Rapture will be after eight years (1999 + 8 = 2007), from Pentecost in 1998 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

In the days of Noah, the Lord was not seen. There were clouds. In the days of Lot, the Lord was seen. The Lord talked to Abraham, then said, "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come to me" (Gen. 18:20,21).

The first Rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1. The second Rapture is seen in Rev. 7:14. Between Rev. 4 and Rev. 7 is Rev. 6. It starts out with the Beast riding forth as a prince of peace at the beginning of the Tribulation, and ends when "the great day of his wrath is come."

The sixth seal is broken in Rev. 6:12. The seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8:1. Between the two is Rev. 7 and the translation of the Tribulation saints.

Therefore, the first Rapture takes place before the Tribulation begins, and the last Rapture takes place before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. At the first Rapture, in Rev. 4:1, the Tribulation is "hereafter." The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. The sixth seal is the end of this age. The seventh seal is the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord.

The Tribulation is going to be terrible. Not being able to buy medicine will cause some to die. Others will be beheaded. We certainly should want to obey the Lord. He said, "pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36).

Jesus said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev. 3:10,11). Those of the first Rapture say that He "hast made us unto our God kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10).

I think the first Rapture will be seen. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

All this talk of the Pre-Trib Rapture being a recent thing is not true. In his just-under-1500-word sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem said (c.374-627 AD), "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together BEFORE the tribulation, which is to come, and ARE TAKEN TO THE LORD, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Isa. 57:1 says, "merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME."

I don't know about you, but I have to believe what the Bible says. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Incoming Email

I was on a Christian Web site the other day and there I saw the number "21" again, I wasn't looking for it in particular, there is was with an interesting explanation. Something to think about, thought you might be interested! It stated "21 IS THE THREE-FOLD OF 7 AND SIGNIFIES THE DIVINE (3) COMPLETION AS REGARDS SPIRITUAL PERFECTION (7)."

I was so suprised that someone else on your P & C 261 has stated that the Lord had emphasised this number on them also! Since I had this vision, when I see something in respect to God's Word with the number 21, I pay very close attention to it. By the way, thanks to the person who confirmed this to me, it also gives me peace with God and I know no matter what, everything WILL be ALRIGHT! By the way I am a Women, not a gentleman, thanks for you compliments. God Bless you and Keep you Until His Coming!

My reply

Thanks for the meaning of 21. I am so pleased to see your words, "it also gives me peace." I have been praying for peace for you for a long time. Agape

Incoming Email

it's ----- again in New Zealand. I am reading all your files and it is wonderful how it is opening up Gods Word as never before. But I'm afraid I have a few more questions. I am hoping you can explain.
1.Bruce Babers Paper says that there is 10 years between the 2 raptures?? Using the 10 day clue in Revelations. You say there is 2 years before the Tribulation begins. What of the missing year?
2. I always thought that Satan's last ditch battle was at the end of the Millenium. You say you think it is in 2008 (in The secret of Secrets revealed). Rev (20:2-3) Wouldn't it be the year 3008?
3. You make no mention of the 1000 years of the millenium before God brings down his new Jerusalem.
4. Does Revelations 22:15 refer to the end of the millenium or the early part of it? Who are these vile people when all have been judged and cast into the fire along with Satan?(Rev 20: 15)
...Thanking you in advance, can't wait to get your reply. love
---another email:
Thanks Marilynn,...Did you get my E concerning the 3 questions on the Millenium?. You usually reply so promptly I think it must have gone astray? If you are too busy do not worry. I understand - you must have dozens of letters like mine everyday> Love

My reply

I can't always answer, and I do apologize. I have 336 emails in my Inbox. I spend every available minute on it and just do the best I can.

> 1.Bruce Babers Paper says that there is 10 years between the 2
> raptures?? Using the 10 day clue in Revelations. You say there is 2
> years before the Tribulation begins. What of the missing year?

If the Rapture happens in 1999, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, there are now nine years, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. The other year seems to be this year of purification (Esth. 2:12) from Pentecost in 1998 to Pentecost in 1999. It seems that we are all being tested during this year, that we have to endure trials to see if we are wise virgins or foolish ones. The CHURCH of Smyrna (myrrh, the herb that has to be bruised to bring forth its sweetness) is told, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer." We have to hang in there and be certain that we are ready for the Rapture, or we might find ourselves with more than one year of suffering to endure.

Dan. 11:35 says, "And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end." If we will judge ourselves and make sure we are wearing white robes of righteousness, we will make it, no matter what happens.

> 2. I always thought that Satan's last ditch battle was at the end of
> the Millenium. You say you think it is in 2008 (in The secret of
> Secrets revealed). Rev (20:2-3) Wouldn't it be the year 3008?

The battle at the end of the Millennium is never fought. Fire comes down from Heaven and destroys them.

> 3. You make no mention of the 1000 years of the millenium before God
> brings down his new Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the 1000 years. Rev. 21:1,2 says, "AND I saw a new (refreshed) heaven (atmospheric) and a new (refreshed) earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

II Peter 3:10 helps us understand what happens when the asteroids hit and why God has to make all things new as he did in Adam's day. It says, "But the day of the Lord (the Millennium) will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (atmospheric) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Scripture says that the Earth is to be here forever. However, there are times that it has to be refreshed on the exterior, like when we put on a new coat.

> 4. Does Revelations 22:15 refer to the end of the millenium or the early
> part of it? Who are these vile people when all have been judged and
> cast into the fire along with Satan?(Rev 20: 15)

Neither the end nor the beginning of the Millennium is in view. Look at verse 22:10. We are back when the Rapture is "at hand," as it was in the Preview in 1:3. The Conclusion starts in verse 6: "the Lord God...sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must SHORTLY BE DONE. Jesus ends his message with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11). This is the end of what Jesus began in Rev. 1:1. There he said, "THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS."

These vile people are those who have not accepted Christ as their Saviour.

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