Posted 7-21-00
Even though I don't see some things as you do, I know that we are sisters-in-Christ, and I very much respect all the work you have done throughout the years of Bible study, book writing, and keeping up this website. There are many things I do not understand - and never will until He comes. My only hope is in the soon return of Jesus. I am looking and watching and waiting (not too patiently I might add) and I credit you with getting me started down that road. Thanks, again, Marilyn. See you in the air! Agape
RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE. Moses will be proof that there is a RESURRECTION. Elijah will be proof that one that is RAPTURED is still alive many years later. Both will be in earthly bodies that can die. Three and a half days after they are killed, they will be RESURRECTED and RAPTURED, proving RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE all over again.
As for Moses' body, general statements can have exceptions. According to Jude 9, Satan "disputed about the body of Moses," but the Lord is sovereign and can do what he pleases. He is leaving no stone unturned to give man every chance to believe.
Do you remember what the rich man in Tartarus said? Lu. 16:27-31 says, " I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus) to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but IF ONE WENT UNTO THEM FROM THE DEAD, THEY WILL REPENT. And he said unto him, If they hear not MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
God is giving man every chance to believe, even to sending them one from the dead. During the first 1260 days of the Tribulation, Moses and a prophet will prophesy.
In I Cor. 15:51-53, Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but WE shall ALL (including Paul, who is one of the 24 elders seen in Heaven right after the 1st Rapture) be CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP (2nd Rapture): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality."
It seems that Moses and Elijah will put on immortality at the same time we do, after the WHOLE Body of Christ is assembled in Heaven on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. We are promised eternal life now. Then, we will have it in actuality. We can trust the Lord to keep his promises.
Now, lets look at this passage in context. I Cor. 15:35-54 says, " But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and WITH WHAT BODY DO THEY COME? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also CELESTIAL BODIES, and BODIES TERRESTRIAL: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION (notice that immortality is not yet mentioned): It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP (at the 2nd Rapture): for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE (including participants in the 1st Rapture) SHALL BE CHANGED. For this corruptible must put on incorruption (at one of the 2 Raptures), AND this mortal must put on immortality (as soon as the whole Body of Christ is assembled in Heaven). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption (step one), AND this mortal shall have put on immortality (step two), THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Agape
Acts 2:27 says, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." The word translated "hell" is really hades, the unseen world. Before the Resurrection, there were two sections, "paradise" (Lu. 23:43) or "Abraham's bosom" (Lu. 16:22), for the saved, and Hades, for the lost. Between them there was a great gulf fixed. After his resurrection, Jesus took those in Paradise to Heaven and returned to Earth that same day. The lost are in Hades still.
Although not mentioned in Lu. 16, there actually seems to be a third section. The wicked angels that are in prison are in Tartarus (2 Pet. 2:4), the deepest abyss of Hades, according to Strong's Concordance. What I'd like to know is, if these are the demons released when the asteroid opens the bottomless pit in Rev. 9, and they seem to be, what keeps the lost souls imprisoned? God's power, or different entrances, is all I can think of. Got any ideas on this? Agape
Re: Response to Marilyn From --- (The Muslim...The following is a transcript of some of the replies that I have received from the Muslim I have been corresponding with.
The replies are to the email you put together to answer his last lot of question. This is not all of them, I answered a lot myself that i felt really confident on, I would appreciate your contribution to the others. Thanks for all that you do through Christ Jesus.
---
1/ The following verse in Isiah 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Is this an example of another unfulfilled prophesy? For Jesus never ruled, government was never upon his shoulder as it was for Moses, or David or Solomon, or Muhammad.
*****There are 2 comings of Christ. He came and died for our sins in 30 AD. When he returns the 2nd time, he will set up his Kingdom on Earth. The world will be ruled by him for the following 1000 years.
*****Man was created and put on Earth to be tested. Will he obey God, or won't he? He is tested under different conditions, and with different instructions, in 7 different dispensations and as a whole fails his test in all of them. The dispensations plus the years I think they last follows:
1 Dispensation of Innocence, Adam's creation to his expulsion from the Garden of Eden, 40 yrs
2 Dispensation of Conscience, Expulsion from perfect environment to Noah's Flood, 1646 yrs
3 Dispensation of Human Government, Flood to Abraham, 427 yrs
4 Dispensation of Promise, Abraham to the Exodus from Egypt, 430 yrs
5 Dispensation of Law, Exodus to the Crucifixion of Christ, 1559 yrs
6 Dispensation of Grace, Crucifixion to End of this Age, 1977 yrs, present dispensation
7 Dispensation of Christ's Kingdom, man tried with perfect environment and perfect king, 1000 yrs
*****Revelation 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
What is the meaning of, "the government shall be upon His shoulder.
*****He will be "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Revelation 19:16; 17:14).
2/Is there a contradiction in the following As to the bible being correct in prophecies, shall we examine a single one? Jesus said:
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three night in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" Matthew 12:38-40.
Now, Jesus was crucified on a Friday, correct? And he was missing by dawn on Sunday. Now, according to my calculations, that makes it two nights and one day, not three days and three nights. How does one explain that?
*****Jesus was crucified on Thursday, "the preparation of the passover" (Jn. 19:14), Nisan 13. The Passover is Nisan 14 (Leviticus 23:5). On the Jewish Calendar, each new date starts at 6:00 PM. The 12 hours of night precede the 12 hours of day. The 3 days and 3 nights were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day) and Sunday (night).
Even more, if this is the basis of your case, then all of the Qur'an's predictions to date have also come true. Why do you not believe in the Qur'an?
*****In the Qur'an, you have no Saviour that died to take away your sins and was resurrected to be a mediator between you and our Holy God. I Timothy 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." John 4:22 says, "salvation is of the Jews." The Saviour of the world had to be born a Jew. Acts 4:13 says of Christ, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Also, what are your views on the following:
***Yes, you can and will be punished for your sins. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Eze. 18:20 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
How can you read this above verse and AT THE SAME TIME tell me that Jesus has died for my sins? I really can't understand how to accept in such a blatant and obvious contradiction as this.
Jesus was righteous. We both agree about this. How then, can it be, that given the above verse, that the wickedness of ALL THE WORLD shall be upon the most righteous? It makes no sense to me at all. Either Jesus DID die for my sins and hence I shall be saved and I will not be liable for my sin, or Jesus DID NOT die for my sins and I shall be liable for my sin. If Jesus died for my sin, but I am still liable for it, then exactly what did Jesus die for?
*****Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but it only applies to those who believe in him and accept him as their Saviour. The just shall walk by faith. That is the way God set up man's test. The angels were tested before man was created. One third of them failed their test, and they could SEE GOD. It seems that they were sentenced to their prison, but Satan appealed the sentence, saying something like, "How could a loving God assign his creatures to hell? God may have created man to prove that He was perfectly just in sentencing the wicked angels to hell. He created man a smaller, less powerful creature that could NOT SEE GOD. Then he probably told Satan that if man could obey Him, He would be proved perfectly just in sending the fallen angels to hell.
*****Isaiah 53:5,6 says of our Saviour, "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Romans 10:9-13 says, "That if thou shalt CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS, and shalt BELIEVE IN THINE HEART that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." JESUS IS LORD.
***In the originals, there are no contradictions. Sometimes two things are true, but we don't understand how they both could be true, but they are. Further study usually clears it up for us. Then we say, "Oh yes, why didn't I see that before?" We are just not a smart as God. It takes us a while to figure some things out.
Some things can not be reconciled that easily. I will give two examples here:
II Samuel 24: AND again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
I Chronicles 21: AND SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Now, I think both you and I can agree that both God and Satan can't inspire someone to do something. It was one or the other right?
*****In an army, there is a line of command, step by step, one to another, from the 5-star General right on down to the Private. Each one in the line obeys the one in command above him in rank. In government, there is a line of command too. There was a line of command in Israel too. David was king, "And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel" (2 Sm. 21:2). Did the king do the work? No. Joab and the other rulers did. The king gave the order, but others did the work. Likewise, God is the Sovereign of the Universe. He can give the orders and have others execute his desires. In this case, he moved Satan to provoke David to tell Joab and the other rulers to number Israel. Why? because "the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel." He was going to punish Israel for their sins. "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men" (I Chron. 21:14). In our holy God's eyes, all sin deserves punishment. That is why we so desperately need a Saviour. Without him we are all sunk--lost--on a slick slide to hell.
II Samuel 10:18 - And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
I Chronicles 19:18 - But the Syrians fled before Israel: and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
Now, was it seven hundred or seven thousand? It can not be argued that a "zero" got lost somewhere along the lines, as the zero was introduced by Muslim scholars in the ninth century CE.
*****You have to read it carefully. Both statements are true. One tells us how many chariots there were. The other tells us how many men were in those chariots. David slew of the Syrians 7000 men which fought in 700 chariots, 10 men per chariot.
*****II Sam. 10:18 says, "David slew THE MEN (7000 men) OF seven hundred chariots." I Chron. 19:18 says, "David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men WHICH FOUGHT IN CHARIOTS" ( the 700 chariots).
***Isaiah 53:5,6 says, " But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Wouldn't it be nice to have a Saviour?
I agree, except it would contradict Ezekiel above, as well as the concept of divine justice.
*****Eze. 18:20 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." That is what will happen to every man that has ever lived that has not made a covenant with the Lord by sacrifice. Psa. 50:5 says, "Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." God is omniscient. He knew ahead of time that man would fail his test. Therefore, he had plan B ready. He provided a perfect sacrifice for us. II Cor. 5:19 says, "that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
***What could be clearer than Romans 10:9,10? It says, " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Because that's not all there is to it. Because that's not a complete statement of belief. If I said to you: I accept the above statement, but I do not accept Jesus was divine, but I do accept that Jesus was raised from the dead, just as Lazarus was raised from the dead, you would not accept me as a Christian. So there is MORE to Christian belief than the above statement.
*****It is enough for you to be saved. However, Jesus did have two natures, man and God. I Cor. 15:47 says, "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy; the second man (Jesus Christ) is the Lord from heaven." II Cor. 5:19 says, "that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF." Jn. 1:1 says, "the Word was God." Jn. 1:14 says, "And the Word (God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." When Jesus healed people and raised Lazarus from the dead, he demonstrated his power. When he died on the cross and was resurrected, he demonstrated his power. In Jn. 10:17,18, he said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I HAVE POWER TO LAY IT DOWN, AND I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father." Jn. 10:15 says, "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." We are the sheep. If we accept him as our Saviour, his perfect sacrifice applies to us and saves us, and there is no other way.
But that's my point. In the definition you gave above, death means separation from God, correct? But God cannot be separated from God, well, because he's God. You can only have one definition of death, right?
*****Jesus had two complete natures. Only as man, could he die.
People have been brought back from the dead in other places in the Bible.
***Man is body, soul and spirit. The body dies. If we die bodily in our sins without a Saviour, our soul will also die. Then our spirit will live on in hell.
Where does it say this CLEARLY in the bible, that the sould is three parts, etc?
*****The soul is not three parts. The man is three parts, spirit, soul and physical body. I Thess. 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Heb. 4:12 says, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
> > Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him.
***But he is not our Saviour. Jesus is the only Saviour in the whole world. Mohamed didn't die for you, either. He died for his own sins, just like you will. As you said, he was just a man. Our Saviour was both man and God, fully man and fully God. Through him God spoke to man. Jesus Christ was therefore called the Word. He also is the Creator.
There is NO NEED for a saviour. Why do you need a saviour? Are you suggesting limitations on God, that He COULDN'T forgive us without a saviour? If you are doing this, then many Christians would STRONGLY disagree with you.
*****That is the crux of the whole matter. There is a need for a Saviour, because the soul that sinneth, it shall die. We have all sinned, so our souls are in deadly peril. If we don't do something about it before our body dies, our soul will die too. God has no limitations. He is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. However, he has decreed how we can be saved, and we have no power to change his decree. Either we do it his way, or we are lost. Either we accept Christ and thereby get our names written in the book of life or not. "This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14,15).
*****When we accept Christ, our names are written in the book of life. Will yours be there? or will you stay on the slick slide to hell? In the love of Christ, Marilyn
I had trouble UL Pro and Con 553 Sat. night on pe. It went on both mirror sites ok. I finally got it on pe after 9 AM Sunday. Agape
Reading P&C 553, I found: "After seeing such a great set of rainbows, I thought for sure I won't make the rapture if I don't see a dove." After seeing one in a movie, the person stated, "could this count?, I Thought so," and ended with, "I feel complete."
You replied, "I don't know about the dove though. That might not count." Now, is it your contention that in order to be counted worthy to escape and meet the Lord in the air in the rapture of Christ's church we have to do more than simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that by grace we will be saved through faith; that we now must puff ourselves full of the Holy Spirit, see a double rainbow, and see a dove in order to "make the rapture"? Remember, this has now become this person's belief that, "I thought for sure I won't make the rapture if I don't see a dove."
Rom. 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." At this moment, we are sealed for all time. That sealing can't be lost, but the level of the Holy Spirit can go down in us if we sin. Then we are quenching the Spirit. I Thess. 5:19 says, "Quench not the Spirit."
At the moment of salvation, we are in God's eyes as a pure virgin. All "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) are wiped off the books. We get a fresh start. When we sin after that, we must confess them to God (I Jn. 1:9). If we confess known sins, he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is like Jesus washing Peter's feet. Jn. 13:8 says, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me." We need to keep our spiritual white robes, not let them get spotted by the flesh. Then we will be accounted as a wise virgin and will go with the Bridegroom (Christ) when he comes for his Bride. The Bride wears white (Rev. 19:8).
The Bride learns this lesson in time to go in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Tribulation saints learn this lesson only after chastising. By the time they are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). They have to learn their lesson the hard way. The "church in Philadelphia" (brotherly love) has already learned this and have already repented. Therefore, they are not told to repent. The lukewarm Laodiceans are warned. Rev. 3:19 says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." We can learn it the easy way or the hard way. Those that learn it, and keep their robes white before the first Rapture will win the "PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:14). Agape
A few days later, on September 6th is The Millennium Summit which is another unprecedented event with more world leaders present in one place than at any other time in world history. Apparently Arafat is to address the world leaders. And, of course, the two months leading up to the U.S. Presdential elections, anything can happen. All of these events have a way of interacting with each other, so all outcomes are hard even for the so-called experts to predict.
It is definitely a time to watch and pray.
Pro and Con 557 Or Return
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Updated 7-21-00